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Intro. [Recording date: December 21, 2023.]
Russ Roberts: Immediately is December twenty first, 2023, and I need to encourage listeners to go to econtalk.org the place you may discover a hyperlink for our annual ballot of your favourite episodes. Please go there and vote. Thanks for voting and for offering suggestions about this system.
And now for in the present day’s visitor, economist Noah Smith. His weblog on Substack is Noahpinion. That is Noahpinion: N-O-A-H-P-I-N-I-O-N. That is Noah’s third look on this system. He was final right here in October of 2018, speaking about employee compensation and market energy. Noah, welcome again to EconTalk.
Noah Smith: Thanks for having me again. It is nice to be right here.
1:21
Russ Roberts: Our subject for in the present day is the wealth of nations–not the e-book, however the idea. Though we could speak concerning the e-book a bit of bit. We will be referring to a current essay at Noahpinion that you simply wrote with the title “Nations Do not Get Wealthy by Plundering Different Nations.” So, lots of people would disagree with that, I feel. So let’s begin with the thought of plunder. What do you assume folks bear in mind after they clarify the wealth of countries by way of plunder? And, what’s fallacious with it?
Noah Smith: Effectively, normally plunder talks about pure assets. So, you may have some ships, you may have some guys with weapons. You ship the ships and the fellows with weapons to someplace else and also you say, ‘Hey, we’re in cost right here. Now you are working for us within the mines.’ And then you definately open up some mines, and the native folks mine the stuff for hunger wages, otherwise you simply enslave them, or no matter. After which, you’re taking the metallic, or no matter assets, or the rubber, no matter they have, proper? After which, you cart it away to the metropol of empire the place you employ it to construct monuments to your empire’s greatness, and issues like that. I feel that is the image folks have of their minds while you speak about colonial plunder.
That is–it’s a caricature, however it’s roughly correct for the best way, say, that the Spanish mined silver in South America you had the encomienda system, which was basically slavery. You had precise, literal slavery in mining, and loads of it was simply enforced by Spanish navy energy. You additionally had–in truth, this has truly been form of a standard factor for lots of empires for 1000’s of years–you noticed this type of plunder. And Spain did not do it too otherwise.
When the British and French got here alongside, they did it a bit of bit otherwise. They normally co-opted native elites and mentioned, ‘Hey, native man, simply promote us some stuff.’ And, they’d ship some troopers in to put down some railroad tracks or sometimes execute folks you do not like, or put down a insurrection or one thing like that. However then, the native elites would do loads of the extracting, usually with type of British and French engineering assist, they usually’d construct some–but in the end it was not that completely different. Mines would get constructed, and miners would receives a commission low wages, and plantations–rubber timber lower down–grown and lower down and all these items.
And so, after all some Marxists say, ‘Okay, labor can also be a useful resource, so that you’re extracting labor.’ Tremendous, if you would like.
However then, I believed–personally, I believed the thought of extraction itself simply offers with the concept you are additionally extracting labor. You are making somebody do some stuff for you that they would not have performed on their very own if it was only a good free market or whatnot.
And so I feel that is form of the thought of plunder. And, there’s completely little doubt that loads of this did occur all through historical past and within the interval of European colonialism, and you already know what? It was a standard factor. And in order that’s–I feel–does that reply your query?
4:36
Russ Roberts: Effectively, after which the same evaluation is completed with American financial exercise in, say, Latin America or South America, the place United Fruit would exploit staff in choosing bananas and different pure assets. We had an episode associated to this, tangentially, no less than, within the Belgian Congo, which was a horrific instance of European exploitation of the native inhabitants and the stealing–which is what plunder is–the theft of each pure assets and to a big extent, usually the lives or wellbeing of the individuals who lived in these locations on the time.
So the query is: How necessary is that? So all that happened–and it is a horrible episode in historical past, various in depth and horrificness–all that occurred. The query is–which you cope with in your essay–is: Is that the supply of the wealth that Western Europe and, say, america have attained? Is that the place it got here from? Is it mainly a type of exploitation?
And, you argue No. As you begin with–we’ll speak in a minute about perhaps the idea behind why No is the fallacious answer–but let’s begin with the proof. What proof do you present for why plunder shouldn’t be actually a great clarification for a way nations get rich?
Noah Smith: Proper. Effectively so, the primary primary factor is simply to take a look at the timing. If you have a look at when nations bought actually wealthy, just about all the enrichment has occurred within the final 150 years, since perhaps 1870 or so. For those who have a look at 1870, the ancestors of individuals in america and Britain–people in america and Britain–were dwelling very meager lives. They had been dwelling lives that by fashionable requirements are extremely poor. Regardless of all of the plunder that they’d performed, all of the navy drive they’d utilized, and all of the struggling they’d inflicted–mass enslavement for hundreds of years, and every kind of wars, and extraction, and all this stuff–they had been nonetheless extremely poor by fashionable requirements. And so, mainly, all of the plunder that had occurred earlier than 1870 or so was basically one poor individual capturing one other poor individual for a tiny amount of cash.
So, think about that your neighbor has $40 to his identify and that you’ve got $40 to your identify. Okay? So, you are each actually poor. You shoot your neighbor and take your neighbor’s $40. Are you richer now that you simply shot your neighbor? Effectively, a tiny bit. Did you hurt your neighbor? Effectively, completely: You shot him. Did you plunder out of your neighbor? Completely. You took us $40. Are you wealthy? No, you may have $80 now. You are still a poor individual.
So, this understanding relative versus absolute wealth is completely key to this concept. The concept that after we go searching and we see all of the automobiles, and the medical procedures, and the skyscrapers, and the TVs, and all of the cell telephones, and the whole lot else we’ve that makes us rich–all the superb meals and funky furnishings and all the opposite issues that make us rich–those issues are new. And, folks in 1870 didn’t have these issues. That they had virtually none of these issues.
8:17
Russ Roberts: And, I’ve quoted Walter Williams–we most likely, after I interviewed him a very long time in the past, we most likely truly talked about this. So, we’ll hyperlink to that episode.
However, from the best way he would summarize it, which I discover it is much like what you simply mentioned. But it surely has a side I need to spotlight. Via most of human historical past, you bought wealthy by knocking your neighbor on the top and taking your neighbor’s stuff.
Noah Smith: Comparatively wealthy, you would not get–
Russ Roberts: That was how you bought richer.
Noah Smith: Barely richer. Sure.
Russ Roberts: Your level, which is right, is: That does not make you wealthy. It makes you a bit of bit richer.
And, the purpose I need to emphasize is that, that doesn’t make the world richer. It is a zero-sum recreation, at that stage. Plunder is nearly by definition, a zero-sum recreation. It means your neighbor–in this case nationally, which is what we’re primarily going to be speaking about–your nationwide neighbor has stuff; and now you may have it they usually do not. So, that doesn’t remodel the world. It’d assist you a bit of bit–as you level out–not loads, by means of most of historical past.
However, the purpose I need to emphasize is that it is truly not a zero-sum recreation. It, definitely on the private stage, it is a negative-sum recreation. As a result of the specter of plunder within the private sphere causes you to spend assets you in any other case would like to not spend with higher locks, higher weapons, higher fences, no matter it’s.
And, even worse than that: should you’re weak and also you’re susceptible to being plundered by your neighbor–either personally or internationally–your incentive to develop and broaden and innovate and do different issues which may result in precise actual wealth shouldn’t be so excessive as a result of there is a threat of plunder.
So, all of that factors to the truth that plunder, which we consider as a zero-sum recreation, might be way more right to think about it as a unfavorable sum recreation. And, it was the best way of the world for much–almost all–of human historical past till only in the near past.
And also you quote–it’s a beautiful image. You’ve a chart from the work of Angus Maddison. Angus Maddison and his colleagues labored diligently to do as finest as potential. It is unimaginable, however they did the most effective they might in making an attempt to measure, going again within the case of your chart, to 1820: What’s the common per capita GDP [Gross Domestic Product] for numerous elements of the world?
And, what struck me about it’s that till concerning the center of the twentieth century–so neglect 1870–until the center of the twentieth century, there was no a part of the world that lived on greater than $10,000 a yr. A really, very low customary dwelling by our fashionable requirements.
Beginning round Thirties and Forties–ironically, within the aftermath of the Nice Despair–certainly beginning in 1950, there’s a outstanding, unparalleled acceleration of financial wellbeing in Western Europe, in Western Europe’s comparable international locations, or no matter you may name them–the United States, Canada, Australia, and so forth. After which, finally even the opposite elements of the world additionally speed up: not almost as dramatically, to not as almost as excessive a stage. However there’s mainly a fivefold–four- or five-fold–improvement of lifestyle in Western Europe and america, comparable international locations, since 1950. Definitely since 1900, there’s been a gradual enchancment as effectively.
So, if you wish to perceive how financial exercise, materials wellbeing, could be reworked, it’s important to clarify that. You must clarify two issues. One, why it is comparatively flat for many of human historical past, after which why it immediately accelerates. And, it will possibly’t actually be plunder, as a result of there aren’t any Martians to plunder. For the entire world, which, the entire world has gotten richer over the past 70 years there isn’t any one to take it from. So, one thing else actually underlying and necessary must be occurring.
Noah Smith: Proper. Sure. We all know–you know, mainly, we all know how international locations get wealthy as a result of we have seen them do it many times. Mainly, we all know what industrialization seems to be like. Proper? And we all know what the necessities for which might be. We all know that fashionable scientific discoveries are completely key to industrialization in addition to a big gathered quantity of tacit data about the right way to construct industrial issues. We are able to see the place manufacturing comes from, the place you’ll be able to have a look at a manufacturing facility, you’ll be able to have a look at provide chains and the place that stuff comes from. And, you’ll be able to see that we had all these pure assets earlier than. Possibly we could not extract them, however they had been within the floor, they had been there. And, we are able to see precisely the machines and the innovations that allowed us to extract these pure resources–more of them than we might before–but most significantly, to course of them into new types of stuff. Now we are able to make a fridge, earlier than we couldn’t. Now we are able to make a microphone, earlier than we couldn’t. And we are able to see very concretely the place all this wealth comes from.
What’s extra, we are able to have a look at the historic trajectories of nations that attempt to get wealthy primarily by means of plunder, and we are able to examine them to the historic trajectories of nations that attempt to get wealthy, primarily by means of making industrial stuff.
So for instance, after we have a look at Spain and Portugal, these international locations now are, you already know, considerably wealthy as international locations go. However they weren’t all the time. That is comparatively current, and relies on their integration with the European economic system. Of their colonial days, they didn’t get particularly rich from plunder, even within the relative sense that their folks remained desperately poor; they usually dug up all this gold and silve, and different assets from Latin America and shipped them again to Europe, however in the end frittered it away as a result of they did not actually make investments it for industrialization. They spent it on wars or, like, you already know, gilding the native church or no matter they’d. Proper? They did not actually industrialize a lot. And that was why Spain and Portugal stayed poor on the time.
Britain is type of the intermediate case.
However, earlier than we speak about Britain, I need to speak about Germany. Which, Germany had a few abroad colonies for a really quick period of time. Only a few, and for a brief period of time, they usually weren’t in the end that necessary. It was extra of a conceit undertaking for imperial Germany. Germany turned wealthy by making stuff in Germany, they usually turned as wealthy as Britain. Finally–now they’re richer. However they’d little or no legacy of colonial exploitation.
Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark–these international locations didn’t have a colonial empire.
And now you look within the modern-day: you have a look at Japan, who had an empire. However South Korea didn’t, proper? Singapore, definitely. Taiwan was simply this lonely little island. And, quite a lot of international locations like this have mainly gotten wealthy with out ever having a colonial empire.
And at this level, so we all know that international locations bought wealthy with out having their very own colonial empires. We all know that international locations that had their very own colonial empires usually didn’t get wealthy. So, it was neither essential nor adequate to have a colonial empire nor industrialize. However, we see that Britain and France did, and Britain and France did have in depth colonial empires. And, the query is: did that make them industrialize? Did that make them get wealthy? Was it the truth that they’d colonial empires? Proper?
And, the reply is: we do not truly know. As a result of, so there are hypotheses that say–there is a speculation that claims, ‘The explanation Britain industrialized was as a result of it had low-cost capital and costly labor.’ That, it’s good to substitute capital for labor. In different phrases, if staff’ wages are actually, actually excessive, however but the value of bodily stuff–machinery and commodities–is very low, it’s good to use the machines as an alternative of the people. After which, as soon as they began utilizing the machines, then they’re, like, ‘Oh, wow, these machines are actually nice.’ And so they began tinkering and enhancing and investing. So, you then bought this–industrial companies bought this virtuous cycle of investing in higher equipment and know-how.
And so, that’s an argument for why the economic revolution was sparked. And, a key a part of that argument is the concept low-cost assets from extraction from colonies made capital low-cost and prompted enterprise folks in Britain to make use of machines as an alternative of workers–and to get used to utilizing machines as an alternative of workers–to broaden. After all, the employees’ wages had been finally raised, too.
So, that’s an argument. And, should you have a look at the work of, say, Robert Allen, it would not explicitly point out the flood of assets. Effectively, I assume he does briefly, however that is implicit in his concepts. For those who have a look at Pomeranz, The Nice Divergence, he talks about this as effectively. He would not put it in fairly the identical phrases as Allen.
So, it’s potential, it’s potential that every one you wanted to begin industrialization–that the rationale that Sung Dynasty China or the Roman Empire or the early fashionable Netherlands by no means industrialized, or India–the cause these folks by no means industrialized is as a result of they’d low-cost labor; and, enterprise folks would all the time do the short-term factor of utilizing increasingly low-cost labor as an alternative of doing the tough long-term factor of investing in machines.
And that every one it took was for one nation to have this huge inflow of low-cost stuff from the colonies to ensure that the value of switching to equipment to go method down. And, that was the magic spark that began the Industrial Revolution.
Now, this can be a principle. I’ll say that I’ve checked out a number of the proof for the idea, and it is extremely inconclusive. But it surely may be true. It may be that, had Britain not had a colonial empire, it could not have industrialized. And, if Britain hadn’t industrialized, perhaps nobody would have industrialized. After which, perhaps we would not have an industrial society in the present day, and we might nonetheless be all desperately poor on the planet.
And so, in accordance with this principle, the British Empire’s useful resource exploitation of the world is what saved the human race from determined poverty. And, that every one of our huge wealth now could be owed to the maybe butterfly impact. It is a chain–this prolonged chain of causation from Britain goes and conquers some folks and extract the assets all the best way to: ‘Now we’re wealthy. Yay.’ And, the world would not need to starve and have bedbugs anymore.
And so, there may be that argument; and I’ve seemed, and I am unsure, I feel we do not actually know. However that is what the argument is saying.
20:19
Russ Roberts: I do not need to discover that persuasive for lots of causes, however I need to dig deeper into the financial concepts behind it. I simply would point out that, after all, many locations which have low-cost labor in the present day have industrialized, have added loads of capital, have added equipment, have raised the usual of dwelling of their staff dramatically by means of the usage of capital. So, this has a sure psychological side to it, no less than the best way you’ve got portrayed it, I discover a bit of bit unusual, which is like, ‘Oh, we did not like that. We could not look ahead far sufficient.’
However, I feel the extra fascinating query is simply the theoretical one, which is the position of assets and their worth in each our wellbeing and the alternatives to develop.
Let’s speak about america for a minute. Lots of people say, ‘Effectively, after all america is wealthy.’ And, why? ‘Effectively, they’ve these oceans, the Atlantic and the Pacific, defending them from assault.’ After all, not from the north and south. However positive: typically, america has been blessed with numerous safety at comparatively low price. ‘And it has so many pure assets.’ Sure, it does. It is a huge place; it has loads of various things. They don’t seem to be simple to extract, as you alluded to at one level. Oil, for instance: was it regarded as a useful resource? It turned one when folks had been intelligent sufficient to determine the right way to refine it and use it to create power. However, the concept your colony is at an financial benefit as a result of you’ll be able to steal their stuff–and let’s name it that, not–let’s speak about pure plunder. Not shopping for issues cheaply, not paying staff little or no: Stealing. Simply, taking. You ship your military, they seize the stuff. Effectively, that is a bonus.
The military, after all shouldn’t be free and it isn’t as low-cost because it seems to be. However, sure, it is good to have stuff that you do not have to pay for.
That doesn’t make you rich. It’s a–it goes again to your instance of you bang your neighbor on the top and take $40 bucks from him. You now have $80 bucks–this yr. When that cash is gone, it’s important to discover one other neighbor. If you wish to get wealthier and keep wealthy–and by rich I imply have a better lifestyle, materially–if you need to do this, it’s important to discover increasingly neighbors to bang over the top. And, that is not a really practical description of how the world works by means of most of its historical past.
And so, a part of what I am making an attempt to allude to right here is that a number of the confusion right here is about what we would name, what is named in economics, shares versus flows–things at a time limit versus issues that persist over time: progress, materials wellbeing, persistent materials wellbeing, persistent materials wellbeing that is widespread throughout huge swaths of the inhabitants. That requires progress, not simply extra stuff in the present day. It means extra stuff in the present day, tomorrow, the day after.
That requires a change within the underlying strategy of how stuff is created. And also you centered on industrialization. However, extra typically, it means: it’s important to discover methods to get extra from much less. You must discover methods that–what we might name productiveness, innovation.
And, lastly, I simply need to emphasize the purpose you made about Portugal and Spain, very a lot in step with The Wealth of Nations, by Adam Smith. Adam Smith made the purpose that gold and silver–they are issues, and they’re good for gilding church buildings and filling cavities for a few of human historical past. So, they don’t seem to be ineffective. However they don’t seem to be the supply of true wealth. And Smith was a radical voice in 1776 when he mentioned: You aren’t getting rich by taking a bunch of uncooked metals–that you now have extra of these issues than you may have some greenback, or pound, or peso quantity related to them–that doesn’t remodel the usual of dwelling of your folks. It means you may have extra stuff in your warehouse that is not truly making life richer in any materials sense.
And so, I feel that perception of economics–that progress requires a change in how stuff is produced–as you level out–but it isn’t simply industrial. It is every kind of features of contemporary life. That is the supply of fabric wellbeing, not simply getting some issues cheaply. Getting issues cheaply helps. That is nice. It improves you; as you say, by means of most human historical past, not a lot. However, to have a change that’s ongoing requires an entire strategy of how issues get improved over time.
Noah Smith: Precisely. Proper. That is proper.
And so, the unsophisticated type of argument that you simply see–pushed by pseudonymous doofuses on social media who could or might not be, you already know, youngsters dwelling in, like, Pakistan or something–the unsophisticated argument is that mainly America’s wealth and the wealth of, like, Europe and Japan, no matter, is correct now based mostly on an ongoing switch of assets from poor nations: That’s clearly foolish. There are two more-sophisticated variations of the argument that individuals who simply have thought of it for greater than 5 seconds and provide you with.
Russ Roberts: I do exactly need to level out that the phrase, “pseudonymous doofuses” I feel has by no means been uttered on EconTalk earlier than. So, that is very good. Proceed, keep it up now. What are the marginally extra subtle variations?
Noah Smith: Proper. The marginally–the actual identify doofuses.
Russ Roberts: Disgrace on you.
Noah Smith: Disgrace on me, or the doofuses? All of us.
Russ Roberts: We’ll see.
Noah Smith: All of us. As a result of we’re all simply hooked on social media, which is to all of our disgrace.
However, anyway, so the–one extra subtle argument is the one I simply mentioned: the concept all these items jump-started financial improvement. There’s additionally a well-liked argument that even made it into the New York Instances within the 1619 Challenge: that slavery was liable for the Industrial Revolution. That has been just about debunked by now.
Russ Roberts: But it surely’s a widely-held perception. And I feel we must always spend a bit of little bit of time on it. I used to be going to ask you about it. I feel–
Russ Roberts: It’s a widely-held perception that the chance to enslave folks is the supply not of the wellbeing of southern plantation holders in 1833, however of America’s wellbeing in the present day. That the legacy of slavery is–and after all this results in arguments for the justice of reparations and different issues–but let’s take that on its face. What’s fallacious with that argument?
Noah Smith: Effectively, so the very first thing is that the analysis underlying this concept is of poor high quality and has been basically debunked. The historic scholarship, basically–so Ed Baptist is an historian, and he–Ed Baptist–claimed after trying by means of some archival sources, that sooner or later within the historical past of the American South, American slave homeowners found new strategies of horrific torture–which he by no means specified however posited should exist–discovered new strategies of horrific torture by which they might drive slaves to work far longer and quicker. Mainly, torturing them a lot worse and growing their output. And that this led to massive–multiples–of improve within the cotton manufacturing. And, that, that low-cost cotton was what precipitated the Industrial Revolution in Britain.
There isn’t any proof for such a torture system in any respect. Nobody is aware of what it was. He simply made up the concept some type of factor like that will need to have existed. And, while you have a look at the proof, it seems it’s totally clear that will increase in cotton manufacturing got here from the introduction of higher varieties of cotton. Like, we all know what they’re, we all know when it occurred.
So, basically, this historic scholarship, which relies on lengthy chains of supposition backed by, form of, effectively, ideology, is fallacious. That is not what occurred. The concept that the slavery system made cotton cheaper in any respect is very questionable as a result of Indian cotton was extraordinarily low-cost as effectively. And, now after all you possibly can say, ‘Effectively, Indian staff had been exploited as effectively.’ Effectively, that could be true. However, there would not appear to have been something significantly distinctive about slavery and its capability to make cotton low-cost. It primarily enriched slave homeowners on the expense of different folks.
And, now we have some new analysis by Hornbeck and Logan–that’s Richard Hornbeck and Trevon Logan–who have performed: mainly, they present, they theorize and present proof according to the concept slavery made areas poorer. If you extracted wealth from folks by enslaving them, you distorted your economic system in all kinds of how.
Now, this must be music to type of an outdated libertarian’s ears comparable to your self, however the thought is mainly: If you enslave folks, they can not develop human capital. They can not–basically, there’s huge wedges, effectivity wedges, that–essentially, you are having an enormous % of your inhabitants that you simply’re simply not truly exploiting. You are exploiting within the sense of robbing them of their labor and freedom. You are not exploiting them within the sense of actually–the society is not getting their full potential.
30:37
Russ Roberts: I will emphasize two issues. First, that none of that is to attenuate the horror of slavery–
Russ Roberts: It is evil or it is human depravity. The basic subject right here, which may be very laborious to speak about, I feel in–it is simply laborious to speak about and be respectful of these points. The query, although, is: Does it enrich the nation that has slaves?
So, I need to take a step again and have a look at the underlying economics, once more.
It is a gigantic benefit to have a type of cheap labor, particularly if they do not dwell the place you reside or should you deal with them as if they don’t seem to be a part of your group. Low costs are good for financial wellbeing, whether or not it is labor, inputs that we have been speaking about that you simply may steal, these are all an advantage–
Noah Smith: Not essentially, Russ–
Russ Roberts: Effectively, it relies upon what prices you get them–
Noah Smith: Not essentially. Costs ought to equal marginal prices. If costs are beneath marginal prices, it isn’t a bonus.
Russ Roberts: Honest sufficient. As a result of they’d encourage you to perhaps overuse them.
Noah Smith: Divert too many assets towards this and take the assets away from the place you go.
Russ Roberts: Honest sufficient.
Noah Smith: So, you introduce a distortion. So, you don’t need costs which might be too low, you already know.
Russ Roberts: No, no. However I simply meant if you consider your capabilities as a nation–or as a human being, as an individual–in basic, it is good to have entry to stuff that’s cheaper moderately than dearer. Sure, it will possibly change your decisions in ways in which may not be good for you in every kind of complicated social, and ethical, and emotional methods. However typically, the best way you get richer is by increasing your alternatives as an nation or as a person, which comes from successfully decreasing the costs of stuff and having thereby extra entry to that stuff.
The purpose I need to make is that the final word low-cost labor is a machine, as a result of a machine is a type of labor that does not get tired–generally. It will get a bit of drained: it must be maintained. But it surely’s completely different than a human being. However, essentially, they’re considerably interchangeable within the financial course of.
The benefit of a machine is that you could make it extra productive. You may make–the examples I used to make use of, which I used to know off the highest of my head; I do not know them anymore–but if in case you have a bunch of individuals sitting in a room with knitting needles, they’ll make a sure variety of sweaters a yr. For those who give them a loom, they’ll make extra sweaters per yr or they’ll make the identical quantity with many fewer staff. For those who give them a contemporary technological weaving course of, the numbers undergo the roof. And, that is actually the elemental thought in The Wealth of Nations. When you consider the division of labor, what Smith [Adam Smith] factors out on the very starting in his instance of the pin manufacturing facility is that upon getting processes in place the place you’ve got substituted some equipment for some human labor, you’ll be able to innovate. Which is ironic as a result of in 1776 there wasn’t that a lot innovation. However he noticed it coming–
Noah Smith: It is form of superb that Adam Smith bought this proper earlier than it occurred.
Russ Roberts: Precisely.
Noah Smith: Like, he did not actually perceive scientific blah, blah, blah, type of like industrial labs and equipment and stuff, however he understood that, like, productiveness enhancements of some kind might exist. [More to come, 34:16]
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