The “Red Flags” of Investment Fraud from a Former $3.8M Ponzi Scheme Manager

Mindy:At the moment’s episode is a bit totally different, and we wished to provide a warning that this episode offers with probably distressing materials coping with suicide. This dialog could activate distressing emotions for you. If that’s the case, be at liberty to skip this one. Assist is out there on the Suicide and Disaster Lifeline by calling or texting 9 8 8. At the moment’s episode is about funding fraud and the steps you possibly can take to make sure it doesn’t occur to you.

Scott:Yeah, we’re going to speak to James Model convicted funding, fraudster turned, anti-fraud advocate. James goes to inform us about his personal story about how he discovered himself main a fraud scheme and in regards to the warning indicators of fraudulent funding exercise that you need to be searching for.

Mindy:Howdy, my pricey listeners and welcome to the BiggerPockets Cash podcast. My identify is Mindy Jensen, and with me as all the time is my anti-fraud Advocate co-host, Scott Che.

Scott:Thanks, Mindy. Nice to be right here with you. We’re going to have a critical intro as we speak, and we’re going to inform everyone that we’re right here to make monetary independence much less scary, much less only for any individual else to introduce you to each cash story as a result of we actually imagine monetary freedom is attainable for everybody, irrespective of when or the place you’re beginning. And now let’s usher in James Brandolino,

Mindy:James Brandolino. Welcome to the BiggerPockets Cash Podcast. I’m so excited to speak to you as we speak.

James:Very excited as nicely. Thanks for inviting me, Scott Mitty.

Mindy:James, on an early day in January, 2011, you walked into the Chicago Dirksen Federal Constructing and turned your self in why?

James:So for eight years, I ran a Ponzi scheme as a dealer on the Chicago Board of Commerce, working a hedge fund. And through that interval, there was by no means greater than a day or two that glided by that I didn’t suppose I might make the cash again. Properly, after eight years and $3.8 million later, the belief got here. I awakened one morning and mentioned, I’m not going to make it again. So I bought my apartment and I gave all my possessions away and located an lawyer and walked into the US Lawyer’s workplace such as you mentioned, and mentioned, that is who I’m, that is what I did. Please arrest me.

Scott:Are you able to outline what a Ponzi scheme is? Simply for many who I feel most individuals understand it’s inappropriate exercise, however they don’t know the precise definition of it.

James:Okay, so technically a Ponzi scheme is everyone is aware of it’s robbing Peter to pay Paul, the place an operator will probably be working a seemingly official enterprise the place the marketing strategy is dictating earnings that they’re making in a Ponzi scheme. There aren’t any earnings from official buying and selling or official gross sales or official enterprise or possibly a small portion. The earnings are coming from new traders who’re investing cash, and that cash is used to both present a lav life-style present success and to pay traders dividends and returns on earlier investments.

Scott:So that you’re taking the brand new cash from traders and utilizing that to spend on both your life-style or pay again the individuals who had invested earlier. And that’s unlawful. And this has occurred many instances all through historical past.

James:It Occurs day by day.

Scott:Okay, nice. So we’ve outlined Ponzi scheme. Let’s begin from the start. How will we set the stage the place we both acquired on the trail to being right into a Ponzi scheme?

James:So I might say from the very starting, I all the time wished to be a dealer on considered one of Chicago’s future exchanges, the Board of Dealer, the Mercantile Trade. And it actually began after I was on the finish of my freshman 12 months in highschool with the discharge of the film Buying and selling Locations with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd and simply that wild buying and selling scene on the finish after they’re making an attempt to nook the frozen concentrator orange juice market. That basically acquired me enthusiastic about buying and selling, and that’s actually all I ever wished to do. I ended up working a buying and selling desk at a now defunct agency referred to as MF International. And whereas I used to be there, I designed a buying and selling program that traded treasury bonds, bond futures, thoughts you. And actually the tip of 99, I had been buying and selling this for a number of years and I made a decision that I wished to exit by myself and principally began a fund and have become a member of the Board of Commerce, and I used to be going to commerce cash and do actually, rather well.So in my case, it was actually easy. Once I turned a member of the Board of Commerce earlier than I even began buying and selling for the fund, I used to be on the ground ready for the IT division on the Board of Commerce to return in and put in my cellphone line and all my web stuff on the desk. And I’m form of strolling round and I had various positions on the ground, so I knew the way it labored. And though I’m buying and selling bonds, which is barely much less unstable than say the Dow Jones or the s and p indices, I used to be simply mesmerized by how the orders coming in from huge corporations would transfer the Dow Jones Futures market. And I’m considering to myself, boy, if I might simply make a number of changes to my buying and selling fashions and I might increase my six and a half, 7% returns buying and selling bonds to 9, 10, 11% buying and selling s and Ps in Dow futures, I’ll be a hero. And actually in a matter of in all probability a pair hours I made a decision to do this. I went to my fashions, I made some modifications, I did some fast again testing, and inside per week I began buying and selling. So my first week of really buying and selling for the brand new fund, I used to be down about 3%.

Scott:Properly, let’s again up. Let’s again up only one second right here within the story right here. So that you left your job and set this fund up. This was in what 12 months?

James:So in June of 99, I left MF International and I began a small unbiased futures brokerage agency referred to as Lloyd Lewis by which I might be capable to solicit prospects as a dealer for this technique. Type of just like the intermediate step between leaving the brokerage agency and beginning the fund, I wished to have the ability to form of check it with actual prospects as a dealer, which implies I might solely be capable to cost commissions. I did that till the start of 2003, after which in February of 2003, that’s after I turned a member of the board of Commerce and begin on the hedge fund. And through that three 12 months interval, I had a constructive observe document, which gave me the arrogance to exit and begin the fund.

Scott:Superior. So tremendous useful right here. So that you begin a fund, who’re your traders and what’s your incentive construction on this fund?

James:The motivation construction is customary 2%, two 20, so 2% administration price of all of the belongings yearly, after which 20% of earnings. And that’s actually why somebody would begin a hedge fund is as a result of they need a chunk of the motion. So the extra earnings that you simply make for shoppers, the extra money which you can seize for your self. My shoppers actually have been my brokerage agency shoppers that I had for 3, 4 years, household, pals, pals of household. So everyone in my fund I knew personally,

Mindy:We’re taking a fast break and after we’re again, we’ll hear about how a profession at a futures brokerage become a multimillion greenback fraud scheme.

Scott:And we’re again. We’re speaking to James Brandi in regards to the worst determination he made and the way it led to him working an funding fraud scheme for seven years. Superior. And the way a lot did you increase?

James:$2 million.

Scott:$2 million, okay. So 2% of two million is $40,000 per 12 months. That’s form of like a base wage, proper? That’s what numerous these personal fairness or no matter, it’s very customary fee mannequin two in 20 for incentivizing of us who handle capital. And that might be, hey, that’s your wage, and you then get 20% of the revenue. So if you happen to develop the two million to 4 million, you’d get 20% of the two million in earnings, which is admittedly what motivates of us in this kind of mannequin. Is that proper?

James:Completely. The administration charges simply form of preserve the lights on and possibly we’ll pay the lease in a number of of the bills, however the place the large bonuses are available in is on the inducement aspect when you may make a revenue and seize 20% of that revenue.

Scott:Superior. That is tremendous useful context setting as a result of once more, official buying and selling, making a superb revenue, observe, data established have been elevating a fund and never even, I might say even in 2003, a very giant fund, this can be a very customary sized fund, in all probability occurs day by day with of us right here, and it’s with of us you recognize who’ve grown to belief you over both a lifetime or over a number of years within the skilled area. Is that each one appropriate?

James:Right. Completely.

Scott:Superior. Properly, let’s preserve going. So what occurs subsequent?

James:After the primary week of buying and selling, I’m down about 3% in my paperwork. I had a clause that if I used to be down 3% in anybody in level of the month, I might cease buying and selling and start buying and selling the following month. So I had about two and a half weeks earlier than the statements could be ready and mailed out by a CPA agency I had employed. And I’m considering, what am I going to do? And sure, I do know everyone and everyone likes me, but it surely’s my first month, I’m down 3%, Lots of people are going to tug their cash out, after which what am I going to do now? And I used to be simply form of considering of the way of how I’m going to deal with my preliminary set of traders, and I’m sitting in an workplace with a colleague of mine and he’s on the cellphone and I’m paging by means of possibly Institutional Investor journal, and the sunshine bulb goes off, I see an commercial for hedge fund accounting software program, and I’m considering, right here’s the reply.Let me purchase this software program and put everyone’s identify into it, ship statements for a month or two. I’ll present a achieve, I’ll get the cash again. I imply, I’ve been buying and selling for a very long time, proper? I had been buying and selling since school, so I’ve been buying and selling for a very long time. I could make 3% again, no downside in any respect. And that’s what I did. I despatched false statements out that first month considering that I might make funds again and I didn’t. And so we’re minus 3%, minus 5%, minus 10%, minus 20%, and so forth. In order that was actually stage one of many fraud that lasted for a few 12 months and a half. Stage two is available in after I’m working somewhat bit low on cash and I’m considering, nicely, I’m a gross sales introvert and I didn’t wish to go to my shoppers and ask them for extra money.So what do I do? I liquidate my 401k, my insurance coverage coverage, get a house fairness line of credit score and throw my private web price into the fund. And that lasted in all probability nearly one other 12 months and a half. So now we’re on the three-year mark, and up up to now, it’s civil crime, it’s making false statements, sending false statements within the mail, however I’ve not taken a penny. The entire buying and selling was official and all of the buying and selling, all of the losses have been official. And it simply occurred to be, I’m actually considering of how am I going to get in entrance of everyone and let everyone know, and are they going to go to the authorities? They usually in all probability will. And okay, it’s what it’s. And I get a cellphone name from a random particular person who’s a good friend of considered one of my larger shoppers and who desires to speculate, and he decides to jot down a test for $500,000. And I’m considering, nicely, right here we go. Now I’ve acquired no cash to reside on. Now I can at the very least take a small illegitimately. In fact, I can take cash from the fund and pay enterprise bills, and in addition I can rent different folks to assist me repair my fashions and make this work. And actually from 12 months three is admittedly the place the prison aspect of the fraud started from 12 months three to 12 months eight.

Scott:So let me simply make sure that I’ve acquired this proper. So we begin the fund in 2003. We instantly first month have a small loss, nothing that might’ve probably set off any flags, though it’s some extent of satisfaction and ego. I began this factor off and couldn’t get there. After which that begins the primary small lie, which compounds over the course of the following 12 months, however the subsequent three years, sorry, up to now the place it’s about to listen to the following stage within the story. And through that interval, trying again, was it attainable, would it not have been attainable so that you can simply have a giant month that eradicated all the issues? Would which have, do you suppose numerous some portion of people that begin down that path get saved by that miraculous month, or was it by no means going to occur?

James:Completely. I imply, even I had dropping months that have been higher than 3%. Once I was managing the cash as a dealer, we had 4 and 5% dropping months, not a lot of them. After which the market would flip round and we’d have a pair respectable months after which again to form of regular, and we’d keep on observe. So to reply your query, sure, I might have made it again. I used to be simply so darn afraid, Scott, when it comes to what’s everyone going to say? Are they going to tug their cash out? Am I going to have to shut the fund? I spent at the moment in all probability 15, 20 grand simply on authorized bills to get all of the paperwork finished, et cetera, et cetera. What am I going to do?

Scott:Properly, let’s choose it up. What occurs in 2006 or thereabouts three years in?

James:In order that’s actually the purpose after I began to embezzle cash to reside on and to pay for enterprise bills, and that’s the place the prison aspect began. And what’s attention-grabbing, and never simply in my case, however in lots of instances of funding fraud, most instances of funding fraud don’t start as funding fraud. Most individuals don’t get up in the future and say, you recognize what? I wish to steal 5, 10, 20, 100 million {dollars}. They usually get paperwork they usually begin an internet site they usually open up a checking account they usually go they usually increase all this cash, after which as quickly because the cellphone rings or any individual knocks on the door, they’ve acquired the company jet able to go to Brazil or wherever they’re going to go to cover from the authorities.

Scott:I feel what’s actually attention-grabbing psychologically is hey, the primary 3% loss, it’s not acceptable, however you possibly can empathize with, I could make it again and show that out. And that lesson realized right here is rarely go down that first step ever as a result of all the pieces else is a by-product of that first month’s determination actually within the path that places you on right here. However you mentioned sooner or later there was a transparent motion into prison with embezzlement. What’s psychologically form of went by means of your head or what was the second at that time? Did you understand it and know that you simply have been crossing regardless of the step was right here, this was manner past the road that anybody would discover acceptable? What was occurring in your head at that time?

James:Properly, at that time, I didn’t perceive in all probability the definition of civil and prison, however I knew that after I deposited that $500,000 test and possibly took $10,000 and moved it over to my private account, that was altering the sport. Now, there was a loss, not simply with buying and selling, however there was a loss that I used to be truly utilizing shopper funds for enterprise and private bills.

Mindy:How did you address it personally?

James:I feel myself personally, I compartmentalized what I used to be doing, and regardless that I completely knew what I used to be doing was improper, I imply there’s little question about it in any respect. I simply actually tried to concentrate on, I’m making the cash again, and that’s what I simply saved telling myself, I might make this a refund. I do know I could make it again, and it by no means occurred. However that was my mindset

Mindy:As a result of we’re going into 2008, 2009, 2010, I keep in mind that time interval available in the market, and the market simply saved taking place, down, down, down. So

James:Properly, it was getting crushed. And don’t overlook, December of 2008 is when the Madoff scandal broke. And I can bear in mind being sitting in sequence restaurant, which is contained in the foyer of the Board of Commerce, and Rick Santelli, who was the CNBC rockstar commentator from the bond pit on the Board of Commerce. He was holding court docket with a bunch of merchants and simply form of went on this rant, yeah, that is actually critical and that this occurred, and lots of people misplaced some huge cash, however the one profit that we’re going to see is that we’re going to study what stops causes funding fraud, and the SEC and the media are going to form of companion up and ensure this doesn’t occur once more. Which after all, sadly couldn’t be farther from the reality. However I had shoppers who in all probability acquired somewhat bit nervous, who would name somewhat bit extra usually, Hey, can we come down and see you?Or, Hey, are you able to make clear this in your statements and all that form of stuff. And it was somewhat bit extra nerve wracking for me, however they simply didn’t ask the best questions. And after they requested the best questions, they simply didn’t know show what I used to be saying if it was proper or if it was improper. And I might say that’s in all probability when it comes to traders who’re investments, some can ask the best questions and a few will get the paperwork and the advertising and marketing literature they usually’ll learn it, however they received’t fairly perceive what’s there or what’s lacking and what they learn it. They simply haven’t any technique to form of aligned with what ought to the corporate be doing versus are they doing what they are saying they’re doing? And that’s the important thing proper there.

Scott:What did most of your shoppers suppose was occurring throughout this era?

James:They thought we have been doing one and a half to 2%, two and a half % per thirty days. Buying and selling. Buying and selling futures.

Scott:Did you ever present them a loss?

James:I feel I had in all probability possibly six or seven losses in that one half %, possibly one and 1 / 4 %, however nothing actually main.

Mindy:So 2008, Bernie Madoff occurs. Primarily, you’re doing the identical factor, related factor, however on a smaller scale, you waited three years to show your self in. What led to that call?

James:It’s attention-grabbing. I get up one Sunday morning and I’m standing on the balcony. That is in all probability November of 2010, and I’m standing on my balcony trying downtown Chicago, and I’m by no means going to make this again. It’s solely $3.8 million. That’s not some huge cash when different kinds of fraud, however I’m not going to make it again. I’m simply finished. I might have raised extra money, and I used to be simply drained and simply finished with all the pieces, bored with the mendacity and the charades and the entire thing, and mentioned, you recognize what? I’m going to show myself in.

Mindy:Yeah. By way of the Bernie Madoff scandal, that was 20 billion in money losses and 65 billion in paper losses. So I can see out of your viewpoint, oh, it’s solely 3 million. It’s not practically so dangerous,

Scott:However yeah, it was 3.8 million that you simply raised in its entirety. What did traders suppose the pile had grown to

James:That quantity? In all probability a pair hundred million. And that’s what new cash popping out as nicely, or new cash being invested as nicely.

Scott:So traders thought that they had a pair hundred million {dollars} with you that you simply had grown over eight years.

James:Right.

Scott:However you had actually misplaced most of three.8 million or all of three.8 million, is that proper?

James:Right.

Scott:How a lot did you may have left within the coffers by the point you turned your self in

James:25 grand.

Scott:Wow. And so what occurs subsequent? You flip your self in, you’re charged what judicial civil gadgets come up and the way does this progress from there?

James:I had the slightest concept what to anticipate, and I went to an lawyer and the lawyer is like, don’t flip your self in. You don’t wish to try this. He actually discouraged me from doing so, and I’m like, nicely, it’s solely me. There’s no different conspirators to this crime. He goes, look there. There’s no advantage of what you’re going to do right here. So he goes, why don’t you simply go to California, learn to surf, and we are going to watch the federal and the state web filings, and in case your identify comes up, we’ll provide you with a name and also you received’t must even go to court docket for in all probability two, three years, possibly somewhat bit longer. And I’m considering to myself, nicely, why the heck would I wait so lengthy to do this? And he goes, nicely, he goes, are you aware anyone who’s committing against the law on the ground?I’m going, nicely, after all, all the ground merchants and all of the methods that they do to steal cash from prospects, that’s actually, actually tough to search out. He goes, he goes, possibly we will go to the US lawyer, and you may be a mould, you may put on a wire and you may attempt to, he didn’t use the phrase entrap. That’s principally form of what it could be of others doing different crimes. And I’m like, no, let’s simply do it. So he truly went on trip for a pair weeks. That is getting nearer to Christmas, and I actually had a psychological breakdown and I made a decision that I used to be going to finish it. So what I did was I went to a firearm retailer outdoors of town of Chicago and bought a firearm and principally tried suicide on January the fourth of 2011, and the firearm didn’t go off, and it locked on me. And that’s what saved my life. After which as I went again to my apartment, I talked to my attorneys like, oh, I can see you’re critical. I’ll name the US lawyer’s workplace and attempt to discover the very best of the worst. And two days later, I’m sitting with the US lawyer and with the FBI, and I principally inform ’em, that is what I did, that is how I did it, and right here’s all my shoppers, and the place will we go from right here?

Scott:Wow, that is actually, actually a robust story. Thanks for sharing all of this. What occurs subsequent? You discuss to the attorneys, the lawyer basic, you speaking all this, what are the mechanics of how issues transpire from there?

James:It was one depend of mail fraud, sending fictitious monetary statements within the mail with the federal system. It’s somewhat bit totally different than the state system. So in that cost, the quantity, the cash, it’s like some extent system. So apart from your cost, as a result of I had over 50 victims, there was additional factors for that as a result of I used to be, relying upon the loss quantity, you get additional factors for that. So I obtained a sentence, my vary was eight to 10 years, and I obtained 9 years, a 9 12 months sentence. After which I’m pressured, not pressured. I’m obligated to pay restitution each month that goes right into a sufferer fund.

Scott:After which how a lot of that sentence, how a lot time did you truly spend in jail earlier than being launched?

James:I served six and a half years,

Scott:Six and a half years in jail earlier than being launched. And you bought out at what level?

James:I acquired out ultimately of June of 2017.

Scott:Okay, so June, 2017. And I perceive that you simply determined to start out learning different fraud instances and talking to different fraudsters in jail. And you’ve got then since made figuring out, stopping prosecuting, some mixture of these issues, your occupation beginning in jail after which following jail. Are you able to inform us somewhat bit about that?

James:Yeah, nicely, in all probability early on, I feel everybody thinks that what am I going to do after I get out? And I had no different skillset. I didn’t know lay brick or pour concrete or drive a truck or something like that. What am I going to do? And I actually form of determined, nicely, possibly there’s an avenue that I can take to assist stop fraud. And as I spoke to dozens and dozens of different monetary fraudsters and my household spent some huge cash sending me forensic accounting textbooks and for our examination textbooks that I form of devoured, and the extra I studied the crimson flags, they’re all the identical. They usually have been the identical again within the forties, fifties and sixties as they have been within the seventies and eighties as they have been for my case within the two hundreds. And nothing has actually modified. So my complete mission turned that I used to be going to inform my story, however actually form of share the handfuls and dozens of crimson flags which can be on the market that fraudsters use that actually hasn’t modified in a protracted, very long time.

Scott:All proper. We’re taking a fast advert break, and after we’re again, James model will break down the telltale warning indicators of fraudulent funding exercise.

Mindy:Welcome again. We’re speaking to James Model about if and how one can stop funding fraud from occurring to you.

Scott:What was the eureka second the place you form of started deciding on a few of these, after which are you able to inform us what these crimson flags are?

James:Positive. So I might say undecided if it was a eureka second, a lot as simply as I used to be talking to numerous the monetary frauds that I used to be incarcerated with. They’re saying all the identical issues. I might say in all probability among the high ones are audits. So in my case, in all probability three months after I began my fund, three months into my fraud, so to talk, I get a cellphone name from considered one of my dad and mom’, good pals who invested 100 thousand {dollars} with me. Hey, Jimmy, a few us are in search of audited financials. Are you able to ship, do you may have these and may you ship ’em over? It’s like, yeah, yeah, I’ll maintain it for you. Not an issue. And it was a matter of God, what am I going to do? So go to Google hedge fund audit PDF and attempt to discover a hedge fund that was just like mine and principally copied it nearly phrase for phrase, and got here up with a phony accounting agency, did an internet site for a phony accounting agency with a New York handle that no one ever mailed something to or ever referred to as the quantity that was listed on there.There have been so many errors in that audit that if my traders didn’t discover it, which they in all probability wouldn’t, their CPAs who I do know checked out them ought to have simply acknowledged the crimson flags of the errors I made. I wasn’t a CPA, so that might be primary. Subsequent, the three, 4 days after the start of the 12 months, beginning in 2004, I get a name from considered one of my traders, Hey, Jimmy, when is your accounting agency going to ship the tax paperwork? We wish to begin doing our taxes. And I’m considering, oh boy, that is it. I’m finished. Proper? I imply, what am I going to do? There’s no manner I acquired this fraud occurring and okay, we’re a 12 months into it, possibly down 20%, 25%, no matter it was at the moment. I might make it again, however there’s no manner I’m going to commit tax fraud and what am I going to do?So I form of simply got here up with this lie that, nicely, with hedge funds, you don’t pay tax till you pull the cash out. And never solely did they imagine it, however I had in all probability over the eight years, in all probability 12 to fifteen conversations with their attorneys or CPAs speaking about that. And no one ever ever questioned it. I needed to do numerous dancing after I was explaining it to ’em, however no one ever referred to as considered one of their colleagues who labored with hedge funds to say, Hey, is that this proper? Is that this true? And simply by no means verified with what I used to be doing. One other factor. So I used to be all the time very open and clear about folks wanting to return and go to me on the buying and selling ground, and I had a more moderen shopper who was with me three months come and he got here along with his CPA and he says, we’d prefer to see your buying and selling for these first three months.I’m like, okay, no downside. So I’m considering, nicely, is he sensible sufficient to know the long run’s enterprise? And I’ll provide you with an instance of what occurred. So I pulled the primary three months from my file cupboard of all of the trades that I did, and my workplace was within the brokerage room, my clearing agency on the Board of Commerce. We walked to the again workplace and I mentioned, Hey, this can be a CPA. He’s with my shopper right here. Pull the three trades or the three months of buying and selling that I did that you simply acquired from the board of commerce. They usually pulled all three month-to-month statements they usually all matched. And the CPA was like, oh yeah, that is positive. If the CPA had any information of futures buying and selling, he would’ve realized that the dimensions that I used to be buying and selling or the quantity of contracts that I used to be buying and selling was in all probability commensurate if I used to be buying and selling a $10 million fund versus at the moment, in all probability mentioned I had a $50 million fund. So if I might’ve checked out it as a fraud examiner, I might’ve mentioned, wow, you’re not likely buying and selling very a lot. You’re buying and selling actually very gentle. However him not being acquainted with the futures market and the way it operates, he had no concept to say that it’s wonderful. And people are three of simply larger ones which can be on the market

Scott:As a lay particular person coming into this. Issues that from documentaries and different stuff that I’ve seen, such as you suppose, okay, these guys, they present tremendous easy returns. That was one of many issues within the Bernie Madoff Netflix documentary, the folks have been difficult him as a result of it was like, wow, the extent, the tightness of the return relative to the chance profile of those returns compounded over a very lengthy time period is simply completely bonkers. And no one ever will try this. It’s simply nearly mathematically not possible to get one thing that easy. It feels like your returns have been just like that, proper? All the time inside a slender band, only some months exhibiting losses for it and all that. Is that one other crimson flag or frequent theme in numerous these?

James:So yeah. So my returns weren’t fairly as streamlined as Madoff’s have been, however they have been general, they have been, sure, they have been undoubtedly outdoors of the abnormal. And within the crimson flag experiences that I do, I’ll take a look at a time sequence of all of the returns which can be being projected and attempt to discover different benchmarks and simply attempt to present that there are particular mathematical guidelines that may present anomalies in numbers when they’re construed. If I’m selecting, so each month I picked out a price of return. So let’s say this month we’re going to make 1.24%, and subsequent month we’re going to make 1.63%, and the following month we’re going to be down 0.74%. So while you’re selecting your month-to-month returns that manner, there are particular mathematical clues that we will pull out that may present, received’t present fraud, but it surely’ll present that they have been construed. And I’ve finished these with my numbers and with madoff’s numbers, and it’s simply wonderful to see individuals who fudge numbers, how simple it’s to see that.However but you’re proper. Now there are huge hedge funds on the market, and I’m not going to say names which were round for a very long time which can be doing 20, 30, 40% a 12 months and generally much more. However they’re going to have volatility. They’re going to have your 5%, 8% winners for the month, after which they’re going to have 5%, 8%, 10% losses, month-to-month losses, so it’s going to common out. However while you don’t have that downward volatility, and it’s actually, such as you simply mentioned, it’s threat adjusted returns for this return, how a lot threat am I taking? And when your threat that you simply’re taking in your numbers is a lot lower than which you may get anyplace else, one thing’s in all probability amiss.

Scott:It additionally appears to me as a lay person who this, yeah, let me open my books to you. Right here’s the statements, right here’s all that stuff in actual time is nearly an excessive amount of. And when somebody is supplying you with that a lot openness and coming in with there that there’s somewhat little bit of a crimson flag that ought to be going off to some extent, yeah, look, I’ll show that I did this right here round that. Nobody requested you for that from this, or if there’s one thing exceptional after which an over eagerness to share within the identify of transparency, it’s nearly like a crimson flag. It comes throughout as disingenuous in a number of cases in my profession the place that’s occurred, proper? Let me show I do all these items with that. The second is that this complete lack of transparency, like what I feel Madoff did the place there was simply nothing that they actually acquired apart from the statements in there. I assume that wasn’t, possibly he was extra within the first class, however are these two gadgets to search for as nicely? Once more, I’m not an skilled on this, I’m simply spewing issues that I’ve picked up from documentaries and stuff.

James:So with Madoff, it’s somewhat bit simpler solely as a result of shoppers would ask for an audit and he would by no means present it to him. Properly, I don’t need Goldman Sachs to search out out what I’m doing and reverse engineer what I’m doing. However right here’s the factor about an audit. An audit’s not going to provide away any commerce secrets and techniques. Having transparency in a again workplace and the way you do issues and the way you course of trades and the way you do statements, that’s not giving any secrets and techniques away when it comes to the way you’re truly selecting which shares to purchase or promote, proper, or which properties to purchase or promote. A again workplace is a again workplace. And actually when it comes to audits, what we’re actually in search of is to confirm if the belongings exist, how the belongings being valued, are the efficiency returns actual, and are the belongings being custody accurately? And that’s simply so, so essential to have the ability to try this, whether or not an investor is ready to do it or they rent somebody to do it.However the second a part of that, I can have an audit. So I might say a part of my enterprise, folks name me they usually’ll ask, they’ll say, I’ve invested in one thing, would you check out it? And I’ll have the paperwork. They usually’ll often say, nicely, don’t let the corporate know that I employed you. On the opposite aspect of it, which I rather more choose is any individual name me up and saying, Hey, I’ve acquired this funding. I’ve acquired all of the paperwork, I’ve acquired all of the paperwork. The supervisor is aware of you’re going to name him, he’s anticipating a name from somebody and all the pieces is out within the, however even with that case, Scott, I might have that audit in my hand, and it’s going to say who the CPA agency is. If it’s a reputation that I don’t acknowledge, I’ve acquired to confirm If the CPA, if he’s an actual particular person, if he’s an actual CPA, which is comparatively simple, you possibly can go to CPA confirm.org. But additionally too, has that audit been misused? Which means numerous instances folks, if I’ll name up a CPA agency they usually received’t even say whether or not they’ve finished the audit, they received’t even verify that. And it’s actually tough since you don’t know. Any individual might have finished that audit and possibly the fraudster took a web page or two and simply added a pair zeros in a pair totally different locations. And sure, they did the audit, however the audit’s faux. So it’s essential when you’ve acquired the audit that you simply’re capable of confirm the authenticity of the audit.

Mindy:So how do I do know that I’m getting appropriate data after I’m asking my hedge fund supervisor questions and he’s giving me believable sounding solutions. Like with hedge funds, you don’t pay taxes till you pull the cash out. I imply, that sounds, if I dunno something about hedge funds, you simply mentioned that I don’t must pay taxes, so how do I get this appropriate data?

James:As an investor, it’d be in all probability somewhat bit harder, however you’d go to your lawyer or your CPA and they need to know the reply, and in the event that they didn’t know the reply, that’s the place the issue is. I’ll provide you with an awesome little story. I’m sitting with considered one of my bigger shoppers, his son who I’ve identified for years and years and years is A CPA has a small little agency down in Chicago, and we’re getting completed with lunch. And he says, okay, so have you ever requested Jimmy all the pieces? He goes, yeah, however I simply can’t perceive how a hedge fund could be exempt from paying taxes until it’s in an IRA. And naturally I’m considering, okay, nicely I’m finished now. That’s it. He’s figured it out and why he didn’t name any individual considered one of his colleagues to ask that query as a result of I imply, look, a hedge fund or a non-public fairness or an actual property fund, all they’re is both a restricted partnership or an LLC and everyone’s Ok one on the finish of the 12 months. It’s nothing rocket science. So for him to not know that or ask me that, I’m simply appalled. And each occasionally I give it some thought and the way I acquired away with this for eight years and all the different crimson flags that the CPAs and attorneys didn’t acknowledge. It by no means ceases to amaze me that I acquired away with it for so long as I did. And it’s not me, you guys. It occurs each single day.

Scott:So let’s tie this in with a very uncomfortable dialog right here in a short time, and I’m going to make use of the true property syndication house, which is correct now, I feel lots of people raised numerous capital to purchase house complexes. You talked about two and 20 the place you get 2% of the earnings or 2% of the capital quantity raised in belongings and administration charges, and you then get a 20% revenue curiosity syndications make that seem like a weak compensation mannequin. These guys receives a commission 1% to 2 and a half % simply to purchase the true property. Then they get the two% administration price, then they get a one to 2 and a half % in the event that they refinance the property and one other one to 2 and a half %. In the event that they exit the property, then they get 20 to 30% carried curiosity. So incentives are proper there.A number of traders have invested in these kind of syndications during the last couple of years, they usually’re dropping proper now. Asset values have gone down dramatically. A few of them have already been uncovered as Ponzi schemes or frauds at this level, and also you’re already seeing prosecutions and that as an investor, how can I defend myself in the true property syndication house by means of all of this? And the way do I, if I’m invested in one thing that’s dropping, decide if it was fraud, dangerous luck, gross negligence, another mixture of that, how can I parse that out with out full data and with out being a forensic accountant who studied this as a occupation such as you do?

James:Yeah, the true property area makes it somewhat bit harder generally to do it solely as a result of it’s a must to go and confirm if the belongings are actual and it’s a must to see how they’re registered and also you’ve acquired to go to the courthouse or wherever you possibly can go and you may test how they’re ED and the place they’re situated. I feel the large scheme I’m going to take, I’ve a step again right here if you happen to don’t thoughts, Scott. In addition to crypto, I feel actual property syndication actual property, whether or not they’re household houses or multifamily, might be the most important sector of fraud that I’m seeing when it comes to extra fraud occurring. I’m investing in a case proper now in Colorado and X, an X Denver Bronco invested over half 1,000,000 {dollars} in a multifamily, nicely, let’s simply say snafu, proper? And the cash’s just about gone. So I’m undecided what’s going to occur there, but it surely’s a very dangerous scenario.So I feel one of many the explanation why we’re seeing much more fraud within the multifamily house particularly, is as a result of, and I don’t wish to sound condescending in any respect, however you’ve acquired numerous Joe Smiths in Kansas Metropolis who’ve purchased 30, 40 doorways they usually’re specialists within the multifamily house and wish to increase cash, they usually increase cash and the deal begins going dangerous, they usually’re transferring, say they’ve acquired three or 4 offers, capital raises they’ve had, and one or two of the offers is just not doing nicely, they usually’ve acquired a deal that’s doing extraordinarily nicely. So that they’re going to take cash from one deal and put it to the opposite and never disclose that. And that’s the place numerous issues are going down. However to return and reply your query, so since most funding fraud doesn’t begin out as funding fraud, it’s actually, actually tough to pinpoint it.I imply, numerous these, the syndications, a lot of them could have audited financials, and it’s a matter of going by means of them with a positive tooth comb and verifying all the pieces that’s on there. And possibly even having a forensic accountant go and take a look at it. And even among the instances that I get employed for, I’ve acquired a forensic accountant that may, stuff that will get actually intricate will assist me with the procedures of the again workplace and the way all the pieces’s working as a result of among the stuff is simply actually, actually in depth, however you’ve acquired to undergo the financials and also you’ve acquired to take a look at the books. And numerous corporations will, not even, particularly the small ones, is not going to allow you to take a look at the books. And it’s a matter of if an investor’s on their very own making an attempt to do it themselves, they’ve acquired to say, look, both you let me take a look at ’em, or I’m going to rent any individual and we’re going to cost potential fraud and we’re going to see what’s occurring right here as a result of one thing’s simply not proper.

Scott:Properly, James, this has been tremendous useful. Thanks for sharing all of this with us as we speak. The place can folks discover out extra about you?

James:They will go to my web site on the funding fraud man.com, and anybody can ship me an e-mail at James on the funding fraud man.com with any questions. I’d be completely happy to provide my opinion and show you how to out.

Scott:Properly, I recognize it, and thanks for sharing your story and for the work you’re doing now to forestall and discover fraud.

Mindy:Yeah, thanks, James. This was very attention-grabbing. I realized rather a lot.

James:Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Mindy.

Mindy:Wow, Scott. That was James model, the funding fraud man, and that was a really attention-grabbing episode. I don’t understand how I might have reacted if I had been investing with him as a result of he had a solution for all the pieces. And I imply, it actually feels believable that you simply don’t pay taxes till you pull the cash out with a hedge fund. If you happen to’ve by no means invested in a hedge fund earlier than, it additionally appears fully implausible that you simply don’t pay taxes. Spoiler alert, the federal government is all the time going to get theirs. So I’m glad he was capable of share some bits on the finish about discuss to your community, discuss to your folks, discuss to different folks, and ask them these questions if it nonetheless appears somewhat hinky.

Scott:I feel as we speak’s lesson, as we speak’s interview was a sobering one. It feels like with out being a forensic accountant who’s going to check these items for years, it’s actually tough in a sensible sense to count on your self to have the ability to spot fraud. I imply, you bought to name out the audit inconsistencies on there, or return and do the analysis for the audit agency. That’s nice. Let’s have extra folks do these sorts of issues and make it tougher. However these fraudsters are going to be one step forward. In lots of of those instances, among the errors he made are in all probability ones that the following fraudster goes to have the ability to overcome in a few of these issues. It’s scary as a result of these folks don’t begin out as fraudsters. I imagine that. I imagine that no one begins out, or only a few folks begin out with the intent to rob folks of tens of millions of {dollars} on this and that.It’s extra about I couldn’t ship the returns, and so I’m going to fudge ’em and see if I can get again. After which it turns into out of hand and it spirals from there. How many individuals are official who or appear official as we speak, who went down that path however received and had that good month that saved them, and have been capable of get again out of that spiral that led to James Ponzi scheme. How many individuals are within the technique of that proper now, pretending like they’ve that it took eight years for this factor to be uncovered? I imply, it’s so scary, proper? Folks thought they have been with, there was 100 million {dollars} extra within the fund than there was in there. I feel the lesson is you by no means know, and you may’t focus all of your bets in a single space in these form of unregulated or personal syndication or hedge fund alternatives, and also you all the time acquired to have at the back of your thoughts that irrespective of who you’re working with, this can be a risk. And that you simply’re simply acknowledging that if you happen to’re going to get into any of those personal investing areas and attempt to make it as tough as attainable for somebody to do this, particularly if you happen to’re with them for a protracted time period and the returns appear nice the whole time, possibly that’s the lesson.

Mindy:Properly, and also you simply mentioned one thing, Scott, you mentioned it took eight years for it to be uncovered. It wasn’t even uncovered. He turned himself in. No one caught onto this.

Scott:Completely. Properly, on that be aware, yeah,

Mindy:I’m very grateful that he got here and shared this story with our listeners as we speak to allow them to begin to consider what’s occurring of their investments if they’ve employed any individual to maintain them. So ask questions, and if you happen to don’t like the reply, preserve asking till you perceive what they’re saying or till you uncover one thing. I hope you don’t uncover something. Maintain asking till you perceive what they’re saying. That’s the place I’ll cease. Alright, Scott, ought to we get out of right here?

Scott:Let’s do it.

Mindy:That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Cash Podcast. He, after all is the Scott Trench, and I’m Mindy Jensen saying Tutu Lou Yorkie Poo.

Scott:If you happen to loved as we speak’s episode, please give us a 5 star evaluate on Spotify or Apple. And if you happen to’re in search of much more cash content material, be at liberty to go to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpockets cash.

Mindy:BiggerPockets cash was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, enhancing by Exodus Media Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a giant thanks to the BiggerPockets workforce for making this present attainable.